tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-40250219062002506.post5077014572690008842..comments2023-12-03T16:49:02.080+08:00Comments on THE RAMBLER: Isn't the Bible anti-gay?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-40250219062002506.post-19043053589185320622014-07-18T21:22:32.763+08:002014-07-18T21:22:32.763+08:00Do you see the real meaning of the first sentence ...Do you see the real meaning of the first sentence of what you are saying here? You begin by admitting that you are ignorant of the context of slavery. You admit you have not read scholastic works on the subject. And yet you make a conjecture to defend your idea of God. What you are doing is typical of the majority of Christians. Ignorant but very quick to make surmises to defend your idea of God.<br /><br />I used to ask myself why Christians love to wallow in ignorance and yet are quick to come up with the most flimsy excuse to defend their concept of what the faith should be. The reason is obvious - most Christians have decided that their belief system is the system they will accept and anything that runs counter to it must be quashed or dismissed without consideration or further study. <br /><br />You went on from surmise to belief. You said this: " My belief is that Jews who truly feared God & Christians during Paul’s tenure wld never mistreat slaves. Not because they were good but their fear of God stopped them from such cruelty." What is the basis of your belief when you have admitted being ignorant and not well-read? You have no basis whatsoever. <br /><br />Do you know why St Pau wrote the epistle to Philemon who was a wealthy Christian who owned many slaves? St Paul did not want Philemon to kill his runaway slave. In Roman times, a runaway slave could be killed by the Master if he was caught. Why did St Paul want to protect the runaway slave from death and not the many other slaves owned by Christians who would have run away and caught again and presumably killed? It's because Philemon's runaway slave had, under St Paul, converted to Christianity. Why didn't St Paul ask Philemon to free this newly converted Christian slave and offer him a job (if he wants) as a well-paid servant? Because slavery is God's institution in the Old Testament and St Paul believed in slavery just as Jesus did.<br /><br />But the truth is you and many other Christians are not interested in this. You don't want to rock the boat. You don't want to know if there are serious flaws with the faith and the Bible. Because ultimately, you HAVE DECIDED to believe wholeheartedly in what you were once told and nothing will change your mind. Not even scriptural evidence.<br /><br />It's impossible to argue with one who openly admits to not knowing the subject well and who bases everything on surmise and her belief of what must have been. TLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13777216835117522284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-40250219062002506.post-16599643789360760762014-07-18T17:15:38.735+08:002014-07-18T17:15:38.735+08:00Slavery
I don’t know well the context of the times...Slavery<br />I don’t know well the context of the times in the OT and NT as I am no bible scholar; I can only surmise that the poor at that time were dead poor & slavery was not uncommon where the really poor resorted to selling themselves as slaves. There were servants who while poor were not so dastardly poor as the former (varying degrees of poverty) so they worked as servants. My belief is that Jews who truly feared God & Christians during Paul’s tenure wld never mistreat slaves. Not because they were good but their fear of God stopped them from such cruelty. This could be the reason why Paul did not belabor this issue or that he did not personally hear of Christians’ cruelty in treating slaves – I don’t have the mind of Paul on why he did not comment on this so can only state my view and not venture to claim that God again put aside the OT. There are still very poor people today & perhaps they might have been willing to sell themselves as slaves except that this practice was phased out, I think by the Americans in the civil war which then seemed to eradicate this worldwide.<br /><br />P.S.<br />I read a new article of yours where you put labels on Christians calling some as liberals and other fundamentalists. Don’t know if such labelling is good. A person who truly is a follower of Jesus obeys his commands. Period. A liberal believer or a fundamental believer? Hmm. But that is your prerogative & I don’t wish to engage in a discussion on this.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10247238036681302372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-40250219062002506.post-77800798285407160822014-07-17T19:52:37.875+08:002014-07-17T19:52:37.875+08:00Hi,
As I have expected from anyone who makes a co...Hi,<br /><br />As I have expected from anyone who makes a comment or replies to this post, you did not address a single point that I've raised. All you can say is what I've said is worrisome. It does not matter, my dear SY, whether my words occasion any worry on your part. What matters is we must tackle all these issues with truth and integrity.<br /><br />I have raised (with scriptural quotations) 3 examples of how our Lord handled Old Testament laws - divorce, adultery and the Sabbath. You talked about ceremonial laws but I didn't raise them. Surely you are not suggesting that divorce and adultery are ceremonial and since Jesus has "fulfilled" them, we are no longer bound by them? I also dealt at great length with slavery - God's institution of it in the Old Testament, our Lord's references to it as if it's perfectly all right and at times drawing an analogy of God as the slave owner and St Paul's direct encouragement and full endorsement of slavery. You did not say a word in response.<br /><br />The only reasonable conclusion anyone can draw from this is you know perfectly well that what I've stated is true and hence you could not offer any rebuttal. As a follower of our Lord and a woman of integrity, you should (and I do expect this of you) either acknowledge that I'm right or rebut what I've said. Merely shaking your head and declaring that my words are worrisome will cut no ice with any reasonable person who wants to consider the issues carefully.<br /><br />I await your response in due course.TLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13777216835117522284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-40250219062002506.post-13592523079776604192014-07-17T17:06:10.840+08:002014-07-17T17:06:10.840+08:00Hi,
I read your comments and would like to respon...Hi,<br /><br />I read your comments and would like to respond to your comments. You wrote that you were writing to Christians and who also know the Bible.<br /><br />My daily living and values are guided by God’s precepts as revealed in the bible. For sure I am not a bible teacher or scholar although I have read and studied the bible for as long as I became a Christian some 31 years ago.<br /><br />I think you are taking liberty in your interpretation of the bible and in some way are putting words in the mouth of God / Jesus and that is worrisome as you say you’re writing as a Christian and one who exercises integrity.<br /><br />Some of your comments like:<br /><br />“ … Jesus is saying he doesn’t agree with the Old Testament (OT) …”<br /><br />“ … Jesus considers a lot of OT as nonsense …”<br /><br />“ … morality changes with time …”<br /><br />Paul excommunicated a man for having gone to bed with a woman and if he, Paul “ … had time for such petty acts between two consulting adults …”<br /><br />These are very strong claims of yours . While strong beliefs are by themselves not wrong but to make such assertions which seem very much contrary to what the bible means to say is dangerous.<br /><br />Both the OT and New Testament (NT) are very clear in that God abhors homosexuality and adultery (so even when sex outside of marriage is between two consulting adults is utterly abhorred by God). Some may argue that what is stated (or least some portion) in the OT no longer applies and you seem to be asserting this too. I would agree that some sections of the law in OT are no longer applicable, eg. the ceremonial laws where the Jews had to go through many rituals to cleanse themselves physically, kill a bull / pigeon / whatever for offerings, sprinkle this or that, etc. Jesus fulfilled all these rituals and his followers no longer have to observe them in order to approach the throne of God for his grace. <br /><br />But certainly, his moral teachings (eg. what is considered moral or immoral, his stand against homosexuality, idolatory, pride, etc.) have not changed and will never every change. It is wrong to say that “morality changes with time” as if God would now lower his moral laws and change with time. Then his holiness and righteousness become questionable. <br /><br />God through Paul states very clearly in the books of Romans and 1 Corinthians his views about homosexuality. This then precludes anyone from claiming that only the OT indicates his wrath against this.<br /><br />I believe some Christians, myself included, would have preferred that God is more compromising on homosexuality. And in fact, some no doubt also hope that he would relent on issues like euthanasia or that Jesus is the only way to salvation because we empthasise with people who are suffering in these areas. But whatever our views or misgivings, we as believers are bound to subject ourselves to what God say is or is not acceptable and not please ourselves. And this is the crux of our being children of God where we humble ourselves under his mighty hand.<br /><br />By no means am I saying that we condemn gays or ostracise them but their homosexual act is a no go with God and for that reason Christians have to say no to homosexuality. Of course, some of us may even have homosexuals in our family, or friends or colleagues. Do we hate them or declare they are lesser human beings? Of course not. But we cannot say we must be inclusive, change with time or accept that what they do is right. And we have to as you wrote “have the moral courage to do what is right as our Lord Jesus has done”.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10247238036681302372noreply@blogger.com